From Flight Decks to Mountain Peaks: How Aviation Safety Transforms Ski Patrol (Part 1:2)

Imagine someone taking the precise, methodical safety systems from commercial aviation and applying them to the dynamic, often unpredictable world of mountain rescue. That's exactly what Carl Peacher has accomplished at Crystal Mountain Ski Patrol, creating a fascinating bridge between two seemingly different environments that share critical safety requirements.

The PNWD History Project:  Shirley Cummings, the official history project coordinator, (& all around fabulous lady), has been on a mission: Collect and assemble an archive of stories and pictures from the different ski patrols within the Pacific Northwest Division. Hence, Patroller Chats was born! 

Chapters

• 1:58 Meet Carl Peacher: Marine to Patroller
• 6:16 Winter Snowbirds: Balancing Work and Patrol
• 11:41 Aviation to Ski Patrol: Teamwork Similarities
• 16:48 Mountain Fluency and Procedure Changes
• 24:28 From Good to Great Patroller
• 28:31 Real-Life Application: Incident Management

Transcript

Murphy: 0:59

Today's guest is Carl Peacher from the Crystal Mountain Ski Patrol. Carl's currently on the Ski Patrol and, ironically, carl's on patrol with me. So we're bringing in Carl as a special guest because Carl does a lot for safety and patrol wellness and he's done a bunch of great videos with the Crystal Mountain Ski Patrol. So my partner in crime, Jodie, talked to her and we were saying you know, this would be a great guest to bring on and have conversations with, because, as we all know, Jodie is very deep into the safety and wellness program here at the Pacific Northwest Division. So, Carl, start out by introducing yourself. Tell us you know who you are, what you do, tell us your patroller number and give a quick introduction.

Carl Peecher: 1:46

Oh goodness, patroller number. I don't have that one memorized. I probably should, but I can start right there. I've already failed one step. I'm Carl Peacher. I joined patrol in the COVID years, so it was kind of a unique time. So this is. I just finished my fifth season in patrol and this will be coming into my sixth. I was in the United States Marine Corps when I started my life. After high school and college Went off, moved to the Navy Reserve when I got off active duty and then came back to the Northwest in 2005 and started skiing with vigor at that point and that's when I really started skiing. So I'm an older learner and I fly for Alaska Airlines and fly some little planes on my own and just have a great time with that. Like I said, I've been patrolling now for my sixth season.

Jodie: 2:31

I like how he says I just fly with Alaska. Yeah, I fly for Alaska, Just fly.

Carl Peecher: 2:37

Yeah, I'm a tech airman for Alaska, so actually this topic that we're going to cover and what I've been bringing patrol, as we'll get into it is very dear and near to me because I take vetted pilots and teach them how to work together more effectively, and safety and crew coordination and communication is critical to all that and we'll talk it through. But that's where the foundation of what I do and what I'm bringing here for it and it's very similar to what I did within the core. Wow, is that my number?

Jodie: 3:07

you just know yes it is, that is your number to memorize. There you go. So we're going to ask you do you have a national number?

Murphy: 3:17

Oh, sorry, I was talking over you. Do you have a national number, carl?

Carl Peecher: 3:20

I believe so no, I guess not.

Murphy: 3:22

That's okay we ask just because you know a national number is a special number that they pass out for Don't worry, I don't have one either that they pass out to folks that have contributed a lot of time, energy, to the patrol over many years. A couple people, let's see on our patrol. Evan has a national number and it's a okay a number in addition to your normal ski patrol number, right? So I've got my number and then you've got a national number that they give you and there's only 10. Where are they up to Jodie? 10 to 11,000. So there's 250,000 that have been patrollers since 1938. But there's 10,000 people that have a national number, so a few. So anyway.

Carl Peecher: 4:17

So that's a very interesting topic. It'll probably come into this as well. But for me personally, my motivation to do everything that I do is not about awards, honors, numbers or anything else. It is just being part of something bigger. So often those sorts of things in my little brain just kind of drift off to the side. Is that just rather be part of the system? So I often personally kind of put that to the back and that's probably why I don't have those things memorized.

Jodie: 4:50

You're fine and that's like Murphy and I have talked many a times. We're not here for the recognition, and it's nice when something happens by far and you feel honored, but it's that's not why we're here.

Carl Peecher: 4:56

Correct yes, ma'am.

Murphy: 4:58

So let's go into a little background and what motivated you to join the Ski Patrol. So, first of all, what drew you to join the Ski Patrol? So first of all, what drew you to join the Ski Patrol? You know you were out flying planes in the wild blue yonder watching the movie Catch Me If you Can, and then go. Okay, I'm going to join the Ski Patrol. What precipitated that?

Carl Peecher: 5:18

Well, it goes back in time as a young man, when I was leaving high school, I was looking for a next big challenge. I was a runner in high school, a long distance man. When I was leaving high school, I was looking for a next big challenge. I was a runner in high school, a long-distance runner, and I was looking for something to challenge me, and that drew me to the Marine Corps. And when I got to the Corps, I found this group of people that were very mission-oriented, teamwork-oriented, worked together and it felt like you were part of something fantastic. You were getting somewhere and doing more.

Carl Peecher: 5:42

When I went off and I went to the Navy Reserve, I found a little different environment and it was very true, I was drawn to that first. So what drew me to patrol is, as I found myself on the hill, I kept looking at the patrollers and admiring what they were doing. I would see them setting up the hill, getting things ready. I would see them on scene taking care of someone in need, and that was something that drew me to it and I just was excited to be part of that and my duty to give back and be something, part of bigger, part of the solution, and so that's kind of what did it, and it also gives me a pretty good opportunity to learn. I've learned much more about skiing and outdoor survival and skills in snow conditions than I knew, didn't know, I didn't know how about that?

Murphy: 6:28

Yeah, that does happen. So how has your perspective changed on skiing in the ski community since you joined the patrol? I mean, you looked at it from, you know, the brochure side, let's call it and now you've been in the patrol for five years. What's changed?

Carl Peecher: 6:42

Well, with knowledge comes perspective, and with perspective you can see things that you didn't see before. And you know, from my point of view I see threats now that I didn't see before, I didn't even know they existed. And also, you know personally and morally now I feel more confident when I'm out hiking or in the wilderness or anything else with another partner that I could actually help them if there was a problem. So that's kind of that's the perspective changed is. You know, I have more perspective, I have a bigger picture of what is what's available.

Murphy: 7:17

Okay, that's good, I like that. So you know being a pilot and you know being a former Marine Corps and Navy pilot. Now you're in patrol. How do you balance all of that? You know work, because being a pilot is not an easy job. You're gone, you're away from home, you come back and then you got to go to the mountain and then come back. So I mean your wife is probably a winter widow at some point.

Carl Peecher: 7:41

Well, she's a big skier as well. So we come up to Crystal Mountain and basically, and we're snowbirds, we are true snowbirds, though we leave Squim, where it's sunny all summer, and then we go to the mountains when it starts snowing. So we live in our forest service cabin up there over the winter and just ski all winter long. And so, you know, a pilot is eclectic, to say the best. My work, I don't know holidays, I don't know weekends, I don't know anything else. I just I work when the system needs me. So I often have a Tuesday, wednesday, thursday, friday off, or I'll have a Thursday through Monday off, and so what it works out is effectively one weekend a month. That we're patrolling is a small hit compared to the time that we still get up on the mountain and ski. So, yes, it is a little bit of a winter widow in the sense of on that weekend I'm busy and off and that's somewhat frustrating, but for me it is a great outlet and a place to go.

Murphy: 8:37

So how come I've never met your wife at the mountain? Does she ski at Crystal?

Carl Peecher: 8:41

She does. Yeah, she's up there and usually wearing teal from top to bottom.

Murphy: 8:46

I think I have introduced you at some point, but you were probably teaching a class or something like that.

Carl Peecher: 8:50

That's painful, It'd be like me. I get introduced to so many people and I look and I'm like I know you, but I'm struggling.

Carl Peecher: 9:28

I just don't remember

Jodie: 9:30

You're going to have to make up for that next introduction. I know right, I'm going to have to be really vigorous.

Murphy: 9:36

I was leaving the swimming pool the other day and this woman was walking out with me and I said I know you Do, you do triathlons whatever. No, no, no. And she finally goes hey, I'm a lifeguard here and I went. Oh, that's where I know you from.

Carl Peecher: 9:52

It's like yeah, I can recognize the face, but I just couldn't put the name there, and you know our listeners can't see this, but if you look normally, what we see of a skier is this you see your eyes and your nose and that's it, and that's behind a goggle. So you take all that off and you're in person. It's like who are?

Jodie: 10:07

you.

Carl Peecher: 10:08

Yeah, I ran into Charlie just a couple of days ago up at the hill, one of the pros running the mountain, and he looked at me like hey, how are you? Thankfully he had his name patch on because I had to put it all together Like yes, you're Charlie.

Carl Peecher: 10:23

Oh, that's funny, yeah, so what similarities do you see between you know, in the teamwork aspect, between aviation and the mountain? Oh, immense. So that and that is really where I'm kind of focusing my thoughts In teamwork in aviation is critical. We take a 65 year old and a 23 year old and put them in a small little plane and tell them to go do one of the most complex tasks possible, and at any moment during that task something can go wrong and they could be in a crisis. So in patrol it's very similar we don't know who's going to be on scene, and so that teamwork and the way things put together, you just have to. Everybody has to be prepared at any given moment to work together. So, as far as I think your question was around checklists, yeah, Well, we're going to go there.

Murphy: 11:08

Yeah, this is kind of my follow-up question is so you're bringing some of these processes that we've had and I just have to tell everybody that I wound up being the benefit of going to a 737 simulator with Carl and my daughter, and he taught us how to fly a 737. Of course, my daughter did better than I did.

Murphy: 11:27

Of course, but the procedures of? And Carl asked me this Do you want to fire up the airplane? I go, yeah, let's go from start to actual flying. And so he had my daughter flip on a million buttons and actually go through the whole pre-flight deal. And so you know, as you bring that into patrol, I guess what was the idea that got you thinking hey, you know, I'm taking this thing and I do it all the time. The Ski Patrol has been around since 1938, yet we don't have certain checklists where I think they should have checklists.

Carl Peecher: 12:10

I mean, how did that happen and come to fruition Well. So this has been a lifetime goal. So you know, when I joined the Marine Corps in 92, and I went into the aviation community of the Marine Corps, they were still in a pretty violent transition from the 70s. In the 70s a concept of CRM, crew resource management was developed. So crew resource management and angled carrier decks came in at that same time and in that concept the idea was this leveling the playing field. Everybody in the solution, everybody in the game, is part of the solution and we don't have a single person who is the one runner of it all, who is the god of the system. So the idea is that the youngest, most inexperienced person can see a threat, point out a threat and stop the operation as necessary to make it work.

Carl Peecher: 12:58

Well, I saw that transition going and the airlines are actually catching up with it in the late 90s. That's when they really started and it's still being developed now. This whole concept was observed by a risk management PhD candidate some years back and when he looked at it he started to look at the whole system and say, well, how do we mitigate problems? How do I make things better? And when he looked at it he went well, let's go to the airline world, because they do this complex task with these multi-hundred thousand or hundred thousand pound plus aircraft and then they go do something out there and they do it safely, routinely. What do they do differently? And he went and studied the airlines and found this all out and in the process he realized that this could go into other industries. In particular, it went into medicine and there's a book called the Checklist Manifesto and that book was a concept and it was.

Carl Peecher: 13:51

If you go back and you remember, there were lawsuits about doctors making mistakes in surgery, doing the surgery on the wrong side of the body or leaving devices in bodies, things like that when they were doing the surgery. And part of that was it came to as simple as introducing yourself when you get into the surgery room and introducing hi, I'm Dr Carl, I'm going to be doing this. Hi, I'm nurse Susie. I'm going to do this. I'm Steve. I'm the anesthesiologist. Do that introduction process.

Jodie: 14:20

And a timeout. I work as an ER nurse, so, yes, when you do procedures, it's timeout, and they've advanced it to when EMS brings in a patient. We were supposed to give a critical timeout, so everyone listens.

Carl Peecher: 14:35

Yes, and that's the key.

Jodie: 14:36

Still has to grow, but yes, Right.

Carl Peecher: 14:41

And that timeout exactly, Jodie, is where you get the concept where the most experienced and knowledgeable person in the room probably the doctor still doesn't have the skills, proficiency and currency to do many of the tasks that are required, and may not have the proficiency and knowledge to know why that subordinate task you know, subordinate in a grand scheme is so critical to the success of what he's going to do or she's going to do. So that's where that timeout comes in is being able to make sure that things go right and how they are manifesting out. I think I might've answered your question, but I'm not sure if I strayed off a little bit there.

Jodie: 15:18

Oh no, I'm going to interject real quick on this, because we talked two years ago, Carl, when we were talking about things in safety and stuff and I shared and this is because that exactly spot on, I want to say it was late 90s I was a flight nurse out in Montana and that's when the crew resource, uh sort of concept, came in and I hadn't seen it working in the hospitals as much until probably, I want to say in the last 15 years, but I could be off. But it was a huge thing because when on the rotor of the helicopter it was sort of inspiring that any, like you said, anyone, if it was even a gut feeling and needed to abort, you abort. And it was interesting because the fixed wing aspect hadn't quite accepted that as much. But within about five years it was equally so. It's real interesting to hear that. Yeah.

Carl Peecher: 16:19

And the key to what you're saying, Jodie yeah, exactly, is it's never complete, you're always moving towards better. And it gets difficult because people want to say I've reached the apex of my profession and I don't need to learn anything more, I don't need to improve anymore, I don't need to change anymore. And that is the dangerous place. The most dangerous person to me is the person that comes out so confident that they say I know everything. They're the ones that scare the heck out of me, especially in the pilot world, right, because if you stop learning, that's when you should be done with that career. And if we all approach medicine or emergency care or aviation or any complex skill that we're doing from the point of view is I still have something to learn, then we're improving and our brain is active, all the snapsies are working and you're learning something and making better. So it's critical.

Murphy: 17:08

So you know, to this end of coming up a checklist, I guess, Do you have an example of a checklist that you've instituted that's now being used at the mountain and what has it done to improve safety and efficiency on the hill?

Carl Peecher: 17:22

Yeah, so change is hard. Right, change is really hard and I do have an answer to your question, murph, but that's really good. When we're changing something or nudging and that's really the way I've approached this is this has to be a gentle nudge. We can't do a sudden change. So things I've instituted I have had long discussions with our patrol director and our assistant patrol director and others about concepts. One of the things that has really changed is our sign and sweep runs have been cleaned up majorly so that they're written clearly and they define where we're going. And in that conversation we've even got and they define where we're going and in that conversation we've even got to the point where we're communicating effectively.

Carl Peecher: 18:02

Like when I first joined, it was a race to get to the bottom of the hill at the end of the day and it wasn't a criticality to stop and actually wait for your partner on the other side of the hill to get there. I was routinely as the slow kid because I was still learning the mountain and figuring my way out and I still call myself a newbie right now when I am but it was common that I would be at my wave off point looking across the hill waiting for my partner over there and they're long sits gone at the base area, and so there was a lot of calls and, if you remember, we had some conversations about stop making so many I'm here calls or where are you calls. Well, that has changed in the sense that people are actually following the procedure of what we're supposed to do waiting at that point and what that does. That's safety for the guests, that's safety for the patrollers, it's safety for everybody involved, because now nobody gets left behind.

Carl Peecher: 18:52

You know we had a pro patroller what two years ago? Get wrapped into avalanche, yeah, yeah, yeah. And you know not that that could have been changed, but imagine if that person was sweeping down and got below rock face and their wave off was waiting up looking out them but didn't wait and just kept going and got wrapped into it and couldn't communicate. When are they going to find that person? Probably not.

Murphy: 19:18

In the spring, in the spring.

Jodie: 19:19

Exactly so you know this is my point Tree, wells et cetera.

Carl Peecher: 19:23

Exactly. So the following of the procedure and I'm using sign and sweeps because that was kind of the first thing I really pointed out I was like we don't know the mountain. Remember, mountain fluency was the thing I pointed out a few years ago. I wrote a big mountain fluency deal. Just be fluent with the hill enough that you know where you are and where you're going and if you don't know, raise your hand and say help me. So there's that. It's not a race. That's the kind of thing is. Checklists are not a race, they're a process, and by doing the process we all are faster, safer and better. So for when you instituted that.

Jodie: 19:56

so, for both Murph and you, I heard one key thing there that I really wanted to expand out, and that was to raise your hand and ask a question. Yes, do you feel that, since you have?

Carl Peecher: 20:19

instituted that a little bit more more people are willing to speak up and go. Well, you know I'm the newbie or whatever, and not wanting to be shot down, how do you feel that that has changed so immensely? And for lack of better things, I feel pretty vetted in my life. I don't mind saying I'm a dum-dum. And so what I did is I modeled the behavior that I was hoping to institute and so I raised my hand repeatedly publicly and said, hey, I need help. Will somebody take me out here and show me Northway? Will someone do this? And I did it publicly and purposely. And when I made a mistake, I spoke up about it. I said, hey, this is what I did. Let's all learn from this mistake I made.

Carl Peecher: 20:48

And there were several points where some of the things I did, you know, as a young patroller, you do some dumb, dumb things and you just make mistakes, you make wrong calls. You got to learn that way. You got to learn and the only way to learn is to admit it and acknowledge it. You know so in that process, yeah, three years ago I got put into this role of the safety liaison and Christian's got an idea to change it to a little bit broader name now and again I'm not a title person. So I said, if that helps you, great, I'm going to do this.

Carl Peecher: 21:17

But in that time I have had so many side conversations and people were initially coming up to me quietly and saying thank you or saying, hey, can we go do this? I had patrollers several years, my senior saying, hey, carl, can we go explore out to Powderstache or can we go out here and do this? Yeah, let's go. And both of us didn't know it perfectly well. But we pull out the map and we start figuring it out and we made some connections and what I found is contrary to the masculine side of our community, because we're a very type, a strong personality there were a lot of people who did not know and didn't understand the hill as well as they were expected to or thought to, and that's just that.

Carl Peecher: 22:06

So, yes, people are doing it. And now we're getting more and more and I see it constantly and against a little nudge, but I'm seeing more people raise their hand and say help me, I'm not sure, I don't know. And what I've also noticed is you know, I had talks with some of the patrol leaders, the pro patrol leaders in particular, and they are also very much eager to help. You know the Forests, the Paul Harringtons. They're more than happy If you raise your hand and say help me, they'll stop what they're doing and guide you to what they want you to do.

Jodie: 22:37

That is crucial yeah exactly Okay.

Murphy: 22:42

So that's all on the good side. I like that, but on the other side. So how do you respond to? Or are you getting pushback to make this thing a structured process, because I know a lot of people in patrol like to be. You know I could do this. I've been doing this for, you know, 20 years. I don't need to be told anything. Are you seeing some of these people that are older patrollers kind of touched on this, embracing this? Or are you getting, you know, pushback where we don't need to do this? We've done it, you know the old way for 30 years and it's worked just fine.

Carl Peecher: 23:18

I've gotten very mixed messaging on that and some individuals have addressed this. These changes and suggestions I'm making from both perspectives that you just said, murph the same human, but the Vast Pretoria are on one camp or the other where they're yeah, we don't need this stuff, we've been fine all this time. We don't need to change the other where they're yeah, we don't need this stuff, we've been fine all this time, we don't need to change. Well, I say, great, you don't maybe need this because you are experienced in knowledge, but the bulk of us do. And the only way to keep this in the future going is that we train and mentor those who are coming up and learning, and we have to give them the grace and the space to actually learn.

Carl Peecher: 23:54

So, yes, I am seeing the predominance of our patrol is telling me yes, please, thank you, they like this. But there are some still that have approached me like do we really have this problem? Do we really have a communication problem? Like, well, it's not a problem per se, but we could be better. We could do more effective mentorship, leadership and guidance. We could do better on the hill with each other, and that's all we're nudging towards.

Murphy: 24:19

That's awesome, so yeah. So in your opinion, what's the difference between a good patroller and a great patroller?

Carl Peecher: 24:31

A good patroller is competent in all their skills and tasks. They are current and proficient, right so. A good patroller is current, as in. They've done all their skills and tasks. They are current and proficient, right so. A good patroller is current, as in they've done all their training, they know what they're doing, they've done their studies, they are there and they're proficient at doing the task. I've got a dislocated shoulder. They know how to sling it. They know how to swat it. They know how to deal with a broken femur. They know how to do the tasks at hand. A great patroller is one that will be on scene and quietly mentor the person who is lead, rather than taking over and allow some maybe derivations from the way they would approach the problem. But you then use that as a learning opportunity for the future and, of course, you can't let a person bleed out.

Jodie: 25:13

Now, that's not my intent at all.

Murphy: 25:15

Right, That'd be bad.

Carl Peecher: 25:16

Yeah, that would be bad. When you see something going catastrophically wrong, the person with the knowledge needs to step in. But what I'm talking about is something that is minor, that can be used as a learning opportunity. It is much more effective for an adult learner to be guided through it, right? So in patrol or in scouting, we use the edge method we explain, demonstrate, guide, enable. So we explain what we're doing, we demonstrate it, then we guide them, then we enable them. Well, after we've done the explain and demonstrate, through the OEC process and our initial assessment, now we're in the guide and enable.

Carl Peecher: 25:51

And the guide and enable is the difficult part is where the great patroller will step back and actually allow some slight deviations. They might see something and they might come up and whisper in the lead patroller's ear and say have you thought about this? Or let's go this way? Or, even better yet, they'll just take care of it, they'll just do it and then later on debrief it and talk about it in the future. Right, because debriefing is where the gold is, and that is the thing. If we could instill something consistently is a debrief from every single event run process, and it doesn't have to be like okay, I did this, you did this. It's not a negative, it's a positive. It is this occurred what is right, not who is right. This is what we should do. What would I do differently next time?

Murphy: 26:35

Exactly so, without using any names, right to protect the innocent. Give me an example of like a memorable rescue or a shift where you've employed these changes using the edge method, and what's been the result and what's been the?

Carl Peecher: 26:54

result. Sure, I could think of several of them, one in particular we had. It was back that was most likely broken, suspected lower back injury center midline. So it was that and one patroller was on scene and called for help and four or five other people showed up and when I got there I was about the fifth or sixth patroller, I can't remember exactly which. It was just below Rex, at the washout above upper BS, and if you know, there right below the Rex Tower line, there's a big turn of trees and a lot of people like to come around that corner. It's where we put that L-shaped rope and then come around that corner with vigor and leap off.

Carl Peecher: 27:35

Well, the injury was just below that. So there we got on scene and everybody was. You know, a bunch, ball is, bunch, ball is when soccer is played and all the seven or eight year olds, everybody goes to the ball. Well, every single patroller was on the ball and nobody was looking at the bigger picture, nobody was looking out and going above. So, rather than adding one more body to the fray, I went up and started isolating above us and getting that area cleared out, and so, as you do that, I got another patrol agency and got them to take over, and we went down and we started talking about this, and it's just a matter of seeing what tasks need to be done next. So in that case, there were several tasks that had not been yet completed and weren't prepared for, and so we were just kind of guiding it along and moving it along that way.

Murphy: 28:24

Right. And I do remember after that incident our patrol leader wound up talking about hill management.

Murphy: 28:33

When you're into a scene and you've got a blind spot or you're coming over a knoll or something and people forgetting to manage uphill Because people do it at a jump, that's just second nature. Okay, we've got to jump, we've got to block that off. But we have a number of areas in the hill where you're coming across. Just like you said, people get speed, they wind up hitting a little roll and they can get airborne and it's impossible to stop once you're committed.

Carl Peecher: 29:03

Exactly, and that's where the injuries are gonna occur, because where people are doing the big motions is where people are gonna get hurt.

Murphy: 29:09

Absolutely Secondary injuries.